 |  438731 | May 23, 2007 2:46am | 11 - "By their sin Adam & Eve died spiritually. They lost the contact with a perfectly holy God."
Well if you define sin as not conforming, then yes they sinned. But that definition makes God nothing more than a petulant tyrant, so I don't see why you would want to believe that.
14 - It shouldn't be brow-beaten into anybody. I've seen many individuals in Christian groups (including this one) lamenting their sinful nature, wallowing in shame and in some cases genuine fear - all because their religion has convinced them that they are bad people. It frustrates me because, as an outsider, I just want to shake these people and tell them that they are normal, good people, and that they should stop being afraid. I wouldn't expect them to listen though! |
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Sponsor |  usmjam | May 23, 2007 1:54pm | 16) God must believe he's God, imagine that. Perfect obedience to a perfect God would be ideal. Its not attainable yet in this life since we are still in a sinful and petulant state. Taking the name of God in vain only reinforces the Christian arguements that precede your post, but we'd sure appreciate you to not insult God's name here.
"lamenting their sinful nature, wallowing in shame and in some cases genuine fear.."
You mistake the fact we acknowledge our sinful nature and being realists for "lament" and "fear". Human nature is a fallen nature. History and current events attest to that. Yet what you see as lament and shame is actually joy and relief. We are free from the burden of sin. That relief is not possible by our own strength. As we will still sin in spite of our best intentions, we rejoice in the freedom we have in Christ. Freedom from sin, not freedom to sin. We rest in the assurance that our sin debt has been taken away, only perhaps lamenting that we cannot do enough for our Lord in gratitude. When one is saved in the Christian sense, all fear is gone. We may be on the lookout to keep our sinful nature in check, but it is not a fear of hell or of death.
You may be thinking of some denominations where they believe you have to earn the Salvation that Jesus offers. That is a sad denial of the biblical promise of complete and free salvation. With heaven awaiting us, how can a bible-based Christian have "fear"? |
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| | | 438731 | May 25, 2007 5:24am | "Taking the name of God in vain only reinforces the Christian arguements that precede your post, but we'd sure appreciate you to not insult God's name here."
A God who punishes a woman, her partner, and all their descendants for all of time for not conforming, can quite accurately be described as a petulant tyrant. I would expect you to defend your God and explain why my description is invalid or incorrect. It is more than a little frustrating to be branded insultive simply because you are uncomfortable with the area of discussion. I appreciate that for you it might be a sensitive topic, but surely it is a valid one?
"Human nature is a fallen nature."
No it isn't. Your religious doctrine would have it that human nature is a fallen nature. That doesn't make it so. Religious people should have no right whatsoever to tell anyone, including their own children that they are sinful or in any way unworthy. It is just plain wrong, and as I said before, psychologically damaging. I appreciate that it might be difficult for a religious person to take this on board - after all, you're 100% convinced that we are sinful and unworthy, and you believe 100% that it is your duty to ensure that everybody knows this. I suppose you believe that you are doing this for 'their' good. The simple truth, as a non-believer sees it, is that it is only doing harm. |
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Sponsor | | usmjam | May 25, 2007 11:40am | 18) Petulant is not something God is perceived as for the following reasons which I'll paraphrase. God is God, holy and pure. We are his creation and as such we are by definition subsurvient and less powerful than God. As a clay pot does not make demands of the potter, nor an axe question the one who wields it, neither do we question God except to gain information and better understanding. If God were petulant, all of creation woulda been gone in an instant. Yet Christians believe God is longsuffering to put up with so much sin and rebellion and still provide a way for salvation from the consequences of our own sins. Way more merciful than we desrve because God provided the only way to have us reunite with a perfect pure and holy God after this life. Your problem is that you feel any constraints and any judgemnent is either "unfair" or unjust.
Think of this, if God is truly holy and we are not, then we cannot coexist in God's presence. Leave Adam & his rib aside for now, I know of no one who has not sinned sometime in their life. Once you sin, you are separated from God, case closed. Perfect judgement has already found us guilty, for we have all sinned to some degree and come short of the glory of God. Perfect justice then would be to carry out the sentence against the guilty.
After this life there is eternity, and so union or separation from God is thus eternal. Separation would be hell, the second death. yet God came as a man to pay the price for our sins. After all that, Christians can't see anything unfair or short-tempered in God, only love that allows redemption of lost sinners.
"..and you believe 100% that it is your duty to ensure that everybody knows this. I suppose you believe that you are doing this for 'their' good. The simple truth, as a non-believer sees it, is that it is only doing harm."
yes, and those who are told what we believe can accept or reject it. Same as we allow others to tell us that actions outside of God's will are ok as long as you do what you wish. The state of the world is such because of people doing what they feel is right in their eyes, without guidance from the God who made us. We Christians hear the messages of the world and still choose to live as we do. Non-believers can do as they wish too, without curtailing anyones free speech, but observe your own statement:
"Religious people should have no right whatsoever to tell anyone, including their own children..."
whoa |
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| | | 438731 | May 25, 2007 11:51am | Thank you for the gracious reply. I'll take some time to think about your points and provide a thoughtful response.
Before I do that, I'll quickly address your last point... When I say that you shouldn't have the right to tell anyone that they're sinful and unworthy, I'm particularly referring to children. I still don't think that it is a decent thing to do to an adult either, but to preach such things to a child is simply unfair. There's no way I could ever say such awful things to my two, beautiful, little girls. I find it hard to comprehend how a decent, upstanding Christian can do it without a second thought. Different worlds I guess. It's just completely beyond me. |
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Sponsor | | usmjam | May 25, 2007 11:58am | 14) reiterated, with underlining to point out edits, not emphasis:
"I agree it is harmful to overload shame and guilt into a small kid. But we do have to at least initially tell them to be careful of certain things, such as talking to strangers. As they grow and face more of life, the cautions increase duly. Eventually when more capable of understanding such things a person has to look within and be aware that we have the capacity for good as well as evil. Its there and we should not try to deny it. But, agreed, not to be over-piled onto a small kid's psyche." |
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| | | 438731 | May 25, 2007 11:59am | | I commend you for that attitude. If only it were universal among all believers. I was warned of Hell at a very young age. I remember some quite traumatic experiences as a child no older than about 7 years old when my imagination got the better of me - the subject of which was Hell. |
| The Nature Of Man
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